Jon Wakefield, Consultant at Via Resource and Leanne Maskell, ADHD Coach, Author, and Activist covers various aspects of ADHD, including understanding it, supporting individuals with ADHD, and harnessing the strengths of ADHD. They touch on the challenges faced by individuals with ADHD, particularly in corporate settings.
Jon joined Via Resource with a year of recruitment experience in the Cyber Security market, where he specialises in Security Engineering and DFIR.
Having placed candidates from Senior Manager Security Engineering to mid-level in highly regulated industries such as finance; Jon has built a comprehensive understanding of both candidate and client needs and addresses each role, and person, on an individual basis to find the perfect fit.
As an avid Star Wars fan, you will often see or hear Jon making connections and references to cyber security. Jon has ADHD and is an avid supporter of neurodivergent talent in the workplace.
Leanne Maskell is an ADHD Coach, Author, and Activist, having presented to the World Health Organization on improving global access to support for ADHD. Previously working in mental health and disability law, Leanne set up ADHD Works to empower as many people as possible to learn about how to make ADHD work for them through courses, talks, and coaching. After being diagnosed with ADHD aged 25, Leanne published 4 books, including her latest book ‘ADHD Works at Work’ & ‘ADHD: an A to Z’, as featured on Sky News.
Hello and welcome to this month’s episode of hyper focus hour brought to you by John myself the host and via resource and information cybersecurity recruitment specialist that operates in the UK, the US, Asia and Europe. This month we have LAN Maskull, who is the founder of ADHD works, a coaching service offered to neurodivergent ADHD people to help them better to help better equip them in the work environment and to bring awareness to ADHD overall. He’s also the author of ADHD, and A to Zed, which is a wonderful tool used by many, many ADHD and neurodivergent people to better equip them to to successfully work in a working office environment. So Leanne, thank you so much for this for coming on this month. I can’t wait to discuss what it means to have ADHD, what that looks like and how we as ADHD ears can utilise tools to help us be more successful in the office place and work overall. So again, thank you, man for coming on.
Thank you so much for having me. It’s really, really great to talk to you.
I have one question for you today. ADHD tax you know what that was, obviously, I were at least I’m assuming what? What was your most recent ADHD tax?
But the woman in my course who she said that she two people, one of them I saw that she was running an ADHD retreats I impulsively bought it. And then before she passed on your aid, I want to go on a retreat and have against everyone that ADHD retreat sort of gets go on them. So poor retreat, and another person that did my course, said that she made this is called the neuro divergence channel by Libby, Summerfield, new deal for neurodiversity. That’s what she runs. She’s amazing. And they bought two of them. I forgot I got two things in the pace. And I was like, Oh, great, and then realise they bought her book two times. gotten the first time I’m like, okay, just about two journals now. Yeah, so there’s things.
Okay, yeah, I It’s funny, you say that I specifically promised my partner was not going to mention this. So when she lists that she’s gonna be like, Why did you say this for the fourth time in a row. But I did the exact same thing a few months ago, I bought a Lego set, and totally forgot that I bought it. And then, you know, two weeks later, it showed up my doorstep. And I was like, oh, free Lego.
Speaker 2 2:27
To expensive book a very reasonably priced. It was kind of a nice and funny surprise. So that’s ironic. As a journalist myself,
yeah. Yeah. To be fair, that’s a bit more useful than then, you know, few Pete few 100 pieces of plastic.
You can never have too much like a
no, no, I have a I have a four foot long Lego set. It’s a starter story or from Star Wars. I think looking at it right now. Yeah, it’s, um,
that sounds very useful to me.
It’s totally useful. You know, it wasn’t way too much money. And it doesn’t just sit in the corner because it can’t be played with but. And that, that was probably the biggest impulse buy I have ever done. And I have absolutely no regrets about it.
Speaker 2 3:12
Yeah, my friend accidentally bought a year’s worth of toilet paper at the start of the pandemic. But it was before the pandemic happened. So she she was like, You need to come over to my house and get toilet paper because she was like, I’ve accidentally ordered this huge, huge box of toilet paper, and then the pandemic into months later. And people were like, panic buying toilet roll from the shops. I think we actually are predicting the future here where these things are useful. We just don’t know why at the moment.
But eventually it becomes useful.
Speaker 2 3:41
Yeah, you could have predicted right? Toilet paper the hottest commodity.
Honestly, yeah, I remember I remember when it was just all like the shelves it was it was all dry and everything it was it was like that for months was months. I don’t miss those days. Don’t miss
a year’s supply of toilet paper that you accidentally bought for him on Sunday.
I wouldn’t mind accidentally buying a year supply like beer like whiskey or something. But then that probably wouldn’t be a year supply that probably lasts me like three months. I just be like, Oh, okay, anyways, I have died diverged a lot there. So, obviously, the point of this podcast is to discuss ADHD and in the workplace. As for the listeners, you guys are obviously used to a more structured kind of podcast episode. This one specifically, I haven’t structured because I wanted to see what would happen. So apologies if we go into tangents and it’s bit hard to follow at times. Just bear with us. But Leanne, my first kind of big question that I was thinking when it comes to a corporate setting, you’ve done talks, I think Disney and a few other kind of big companies, right. So So, when you do those talks, what would you say are the three kind of big points about ADHD that you always try to hit on?
Speaker 2 5:12
It depends on the company. But number one, I would say, like the general trainings, I do like understanding ADHD, so like, actually explain what it is and what isn’t and how not everyone in the world has got ADHD, I usually share about my experience, and how perfectly perfect my life was before I was diagnosed. But not just like a cute bluff, like, here’s kind of thing. They kind of like actually understanding what it is. So I’ll go through like executive functioning impacts and like how it can show up in the workplace. The difference between like diversity, sorry, this is not your, I’ve got ADHD myself, so they come under free bullet points. This is a personal understanding ADHD, like the difference between like disability and diversity. And neurodiversity, like breaking that down for people to actually understand that we’re in a coaching language, we call that like, name it to tame it. So if you can’t understand that, and you feel scared talking about that, then that’s hard to do. But next is supporting ADHD. So like how you can actually support people that are neurodivergent in the workplace. And again, to kind of do it like by explaining how it shows up to the kind of basic human to human interaction, like having policies in place for people to know how to get support or giving written instructions. But the fact that like, everyone is different. So what works for one person won’t work for everyone, but like, maybe some kind of coaching skills, like how to people without being like, Oh, my God go to HR, support, and having access to work. Again, I would say that is a really important one, if someone’s a company based in the UK, like because access to ICT can pay for people to get support, like coaching, like administrative support, and then some good understanding, harnessing and then the third one will be next goal, like my ADHD. Third one is harnessing ADHD, so the understanding, supporting and harnessing ADHD. So harnessing is all about, like, the strengths and the brilliant sides of being neurodivergent. Because he wants everyone to think the same. All of the brilliant qualities that can come from it and like how I like to think of it like if you have a plant that is dying, you don’t check out the plant, you just put it in the right place, or the right soil or whatever it is that what that plant needs, and then it can thrive. Right. And so that’s pretty much it. It’s like, why bother doing all of this in the first place? Like herald the really nice benefits to young people to have a good workplace?
Do you talk about do you talk about like the difference in like, what ADHD looks like in men and what it like, what it looks like, and like women kind of the differences there?
Speaker 2 8:02
Yeah, I got that kind of it depends on the company and what they want. Essentially, like, the fact most people would think ADHD like I did when I was diagnosed, like connects to hyperactive little boys. There’s so much terrible disparities in general, and the access to health care that people that are black are different racial backgrounds. And women and girls and all of the intersectionality isn’t between trans people. There’s like, so so many people that are denied support, like, you know, one in four women who have attempted suicide who have ADHD. Yeah, embedded in my brain now. So they kind of come out at random points when needed.
One in one sorry, one in four women with ADHD has attempted suicide. Yeah. Yes. And I didn’t know that. That’s insane.
Speaker 2 8:59
Yeah, yeah. And five times higher risk of suicide for people with ADHD. I should know about different backgrounds, but But yeah, like it’s so there’s lots of every every book called ADHD and A to Zed. And for that I tried to find facts and like research for every single chapter, very painful process. Many, many facts, many types of very stressful, but many like academic papers and stuff. But it was good because now they are like, embedded in my brain. So they come out, but yeah, it’s really really bad. So like raising in particularly that’s about that that’s not like, and especially in a workplace where often I’ll get asked to talk a company as being like, we want to hear about the secret pill of ADHD and neurodiversity, and like, oh, I actually almost died. I was told this joke when I do corporate talks that no one ever laughs at and I always say like, oh, basically I was like knows, I I basically became extremely suicidal myself. But fortunately, I’ve got ADHD so not very good at following for everyone. and kind of looks at me like, she just say that and then whenever laugh at this joke, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because I didn’t finish my standard comedy course. And then they laugh. So
Unknown Speaker 10:12
everyone can laugh. Yeah, it’s not a normal I did that recently, Deutsche Bank and the Bank of America, they’re like, why did you?
Speaker 2 10:21
But no, I tried to bring a bit more like human into it. And yeah, like, make it a bit more accessible and less like corporate because exactly like, I can go in and read stuff off Google and be like, these things, but having had literally the lived experience myself, I tried to bring about a lie. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just I just awkward. The last when you mentioned that wasn’t like a voluntary thing. It’s not like it’s like a but mine was like, shocked by that. So that’s why I left.
Speaker 2 10:57
But, but, but the good thing, like, because that is like a way of me expressing that and making it like a real life person that’s standing in front of you, instead of just reading out a fact that’s not very, like tangible, but also without dragging everyone down into my trauma. But making it really obvious, because I do think like, yeah, like neuro diversity can be great. And there’s lots of brilliant benefits to it, as I said, but in the wrong situations without the right support, if you don’t know, I was 25, and I got diagnosed, and it’s true, like I very much would not be here if I hadn’t got that diagnosis. So really important. It’s something I just tried that I guess that’s the big point I tried to hit on, which is like, not everyone is not something people like making, like can’t get it from eating sugar. It’s like a really serious, it can be really serious. If you don’t get that help, so
yeah, yeah. And I think I think that that’s one of those things is you know, there’s there’s so many people on like Tik Tok or Instagram and I’m that there’s one person in particular, I can think of, I don’t remember their their handle, and I’m not gonna blast their name or anything right now. But when I first started watching them on tick tock, I was like, oh, man, like, this is so true. You know, they really have that they’ve, they have ADHD, they get it. And I don’t want to be the person that says, No, you don’t have it. Unfortunately, as I’ve been watching it more and more, I’m starting to, you know, I’m starting to wonder, do do they actually have ADHD? Most likely they do. But are they? Are they using hyperbole? Or, you know, they’re making it a bigger deal than they are than it? I don’t want to say it’s a bigger deal. You know, what I’m trying to say, though, I hopefully at least, like are they trying to show to make a kind of a show to highlight it, but in doing it, it looks, it looks fake. It doesn’t, it looks inauthentic. And then, from my perspective, at least from my from my opinion, when something like that happens, it exacerbates the issue of hyperactivity and impulsiveness. And all of these stereotypes that that we face on a daily basis. Because then people watch them like, well, you can only have ADHD, if you’re at that, at that level. And that that’s not the case. I know, tonnes of people who have ADHD, but it’s quite mild. And they don’t need medication. And they’ve, they know they’ve done things in their life to help them kind of work it through. To work through it, I need medication. If I don’t have my meds, then I’ll take a picture, send it to my girlfriend and say, Hey, can you help me with this? And then five minutes later, she’ll respond. And I’ll have already forgotten what I was talking about. Like, that’s me, MIT unmedicated. It’s just yeah, it’s just a shame that like that, that kind of stuff happens. And it exacerbates the issue. And then you have to go into you know, like you said, Deutsche Bank or Bank of America and make this kind of like, this this joke, which isn’t really
Speaker 2 14:08
like, that’s, I quit my stand up comedy course, they were like, you can’t make people laugh at you. They’re like, you can’t use trauma. That’s all I’ve got. I don’t have anything. Yeah, I get what you mean. But I think thing and that’s something I’ve really struggled with when I became an ADHD coach, because I was inundated by people contacting me, like, non stop. And now we’ve got boundaries around how they can contact me, but like, particularly from people that were like, oh, like I had a call once a month. I woke up in the morning to read an article in the news about ADHD. And then I went on social media and I saw this meme that said, the things in your house don’t have a home it means you have ADHD and I knew that was me. And then she called up a private psychiatrist, like scoop it out and then she books, thing, paedophiles and homes and within like, by the time had partner had woken up. She has like, she’s like, Oh, guess what, I’ve got ADHD. And like, she paid 1000 for an assessment, like a week later, and then she was on medication. And she called me like, hey, what do I do? And I was like, and you know, I think it’s really hard because it’s not my place or your place and you want anyone’s place to save someone. Yeah, has hasn’t like, I often get told by people that I don’t look like I have ADHD. Like before, I had, like, got free books, and very much like your workaholic or ADHD. But at the same time, I can’t like, cook, stay alive. James, the bedsheets like basic human stuff, but also the internet. And social media brings a really, it’s great, because, again, from that adults in the UK weren’t able to be diagnosed until 2008. So there are so many people that like, have been missed, and like would, you know, like me, I was like, what? I didn’t have it. And I actually kind of accepted the diagnosis from hearing the podcast where they talked about rejection sensitive dysphoria when I was like, Oh, there you go. But, you know, like, at the same time, I’ve heard from people like, someone said that my book shouldn’t talk about RST, because they were like, That’s not academically verified. And I was like, well, and I ended up then going on my own RSD tangent and talking to the World Health Organisation about how they should be recognising this stuff, maybe that’s why women are killing themselves. But honestly, yes, I think the internet is like a very. And that’s again, why I wanted to do like ADHD works a lot. Because to bring some kind of like, help there, because the internet can just keep you like, I went through that myself. And I was having a really tough time, like, endlessly Googling and scrolling and being like, I need to find out what I should do, what next, what next, what next? And like, what coaching was sort of like, Hey, sit down. Well, like how does it affect you? Like, they’re, they’re like inside you? And like, what does that mean for you? And how, you know, what do you want to do with this information? Whereas social media, like is kind of a what is it like a show, showplace? Like, people, like people become like character cultures of themselves on the USA. And if you’re talking about something like mental health, neurodiverse, anything, then you end up like that, that’s my first book. It’s called the reality manifesto, which I actually wrote, from going down this rabbit hole, about social media, because I grew up modelling from like, the age of 13. So it’s basically when we start objectifying ourselves like you can kind of become, that’s a lot again, what I’m trying to do ADHD works, because I didn’t want to personally have to go and talk about my experiences every day to help other people. Like, I don’t have to objectify myself my experiences, but be able to, like, train up other coaches to coach people, so I’m not doing it all myself.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you’re training other people and and they’re going out and doing the same thing that you’re doing as well, you’re suddenly it’s not just you that’s doing it. You’re not like the you know, the the sole Vanguard or whatever you want to call it, that that’s going out, you know, now, now you have a network, you have people that are dedicated and passionate about it, they want to talk about it, it spreads more awareness than you could ever do by yourself. And I think that’s great. It’s, um, and, and like you said, I mean, it hits on the rst as well, I the rst is tough, it’s really tough. I don’t even know how else to say it. Like, you know, if I use I’ll use an example a few months ago. Obviously, as a recruiter, I send out emails and messages and stuff like that on LinkedIn all the time. And I sent out a message to one hiring manager basically saying, Hey, I know you’re not hiring. We’d love to have a conversation with you, just to see what your options are for the next six, six to nine months, something like that. And I go back to my messages on LinkedIn, probably 15 minutes later, and the guy had blocked me. He didn’t even respond. He just straight up blocked me. And wouldn’t talk to my I told my manager this and he was like, oh, whatever, just, you know, move on. And I’m like, I want to know why he blocked me. I’m upset. I was like, I’m actually upset. And it actually spiralled me. I was upset for the better part of probably 45 minutes to an hour just like, what’s going on? Why was I blocked? What did I ever do this guy?
Speaker 2 19:37
What was the thought that was causing me to be upset?
What was the thought that was causing me to be upset? The thought that was causing me to be upset was that I didn’t feel like I deserved to be blocked. It was like you could have just it was like he could have just said no thanks. It just felt so unnecessary and just mean.
Speaker 2 20:05
Yeah. Because at night What other reasons could they have had for blocking?
Yeah, yeah, that’s the thing. It was like, Yeah, that was that was it as well? Like, what are the reasons that you have to block me besides this one message? And I’ve never had anyone blocked me before because of just the standard. I’m doing my job message.
Speaker 2 20:27
So if, let’s say if you put yourself in what why do you think he that blocked you?
I think what I thought about this, I think he blocked me because I’m an annoying critter. Yeah. Which I mean, like, I, I can see that and be like, you know, that’s fair. But at the same time, my more rational part is like that, if that happened to me, I wouldn’t block the person. I would just ignore them. Or you know, say No, thanks.
Speaker 2 20:57
Yeah. Say, because basically, by going into coaching mode coaching me on how I coach people around RSD, right, because I remember you telling me this, and I was like, Oh, I blocked people all the time. I always I’d love people, because I get like, 100 messages a day, particularly, particularly from people that like, Give me also like, they want stuff. I also got message from someone that was like, I’ve got quite a few of these kind of messages, because because the handle that we have like these kind of automated Not really, but template ones to, because I’ll get people like trauma dumping time, all of the very intense drama asking for help, like, again, because the support, isn’t there. Yeah, I’m gonna try to reply to as many as possible, but like, they want to have chats want to do it, like has so much to deal with myself. And then but I often get messages from people being like, I have rejection sensitive before because you sent me automated response, like huge email being like you shouldn’t have that. I’m not responsible. Like, what how we try to coach people around RSD is like, it’s basically identifying the thought, because often, it’s just like, being punched in the chest kind of like trauma of like, everyone’s doing my job again, oh, my God. But then if you can identify it to the fore, and then see how it’s affecting you. And then what I tried to do when I’m coaching people is try to get them to actually imagine that they’re like a lawyer for the other person. And being like, well, actually, they did this because they’d get like, 150 messages a day, and I didn’t already take them did it because they’re like, too busy. And they’re just like, they will need the end the messenger. And when I blocked people, it’s just because I knew that message on my inbox, I don’t think they’ll even notice, like, wherever they go in trying to see it from their side and then see the impact it’s having on us because usually, then the impact that has on us makes us repeat that first thought because we like to self preface. Stuff like confirm, and then kind of identifying a bad thought to replace that with that’s not going to cause us some same. Like, okay, like, he’s just busy or like, well, like what does it deserve to be blocked? Like, you can’t? Who Who can say whatever you do deserve to be blocked? Yeah. Doesn’t matter if you get locked out. But yeah, but it’s, you know, he missed out by blocking. He missed could have been on this podcast right now that we’re here talking about him.
I like to think he missed out. Yeah, I’ll never know. And I don’t even remember the guy’s name at this point. Yeah. That’s, I had before Before this, I hadn’t even thought about that in probably two or three months. So in last time, I thought about it. I was just like, that was ridiculous. But,
Speaker 2 23:53
but like, again, because that’s how we tried to coach people on it as like, especially for me once I understood it was real. And like, for no one listening that doesn’t know rejection sensitive dysphoria is a really, really intense emotional pain to real or perceived rejection. That lasts like a few hours. And the fact that really struck me was like, it’s different from things like bipolar or borderline personality disorder, because it’s always caused by something like a thought or a look that gave us and lasts for like, a short period of time, as opposed to like, a few days. I’ve had a really awful awful fortnight event now, ironically. But that really, so when we’re coaching people on they’re always like, I think just knowing it’s real, it’s like, oh, then you then you don’t feel so much. Like, you’re not beating yourself up so much, because you’re like, Oh, this is happening. And then validating your own experiences. And as coaches we really tried to like, do what I just said would be about, like, valid in a way that’s validating. So it’s not like oh, no, you’re being ridiculous. It’s like, okay, What impact of the like, do you want to have it? What do you want to do about it? Like, you know, but your your feelings are very valid and he is me and and it’s really horrible to block people that you don’t know. But like, it’s so we accept it and we’re like, yeah, it’s very, very valid because for me anyway, whenever I experience RST, I’m like, I’m being ridiculous. I need to, I need to get over it. What’s the problem in it? It’s kind of like a tornado. Yeah, it’s ironic that you open this asking me about the corporate talks, because it’s actually thanks to you. But I do them at all, because I used to have such bad corporate stuff such bad rejections and the three around public speaking that I refuse to basically do any of them. And I was just really, really, actually, I think it was after had a talk where I like, it was just the Zoom broke. And the talk was like an online one. Zoom kind of phrase, like, I didn’t realise, and everyone was like, You were amazing. But afterwards, I like cried in bed for like a week. And then I said, I’m not doing any more talks. And then it was only because you had suggested me to your company. And I was getting a lot of like, requests and companies, but I just put my fees really, really high. And I was like, No, I’m on the phone. I put my fees really high because I didn’t really like doing talks, especially in person I’m like, would never be one in person. And they were like, Wait would like to book you in person for a million pounds? Can you not do that? I’m doing it helped me to like get over the fear and to do it and to realise like, it’s okay. And to validate it like it’s, it’s you can do it and not, like, end up in a puddle on the floor crying.
Yeah. Yeah, it’s, I guess, I guess you’re welcome. I, I don’t remember if I messaged you, or if I just put like a comment down on a post or something I honestly don’t remember. But I’ve, like, I was talking to somebody about this recently. And just thinking, because I think you mentioned this. When I’m when I reached out to you for this podcast, you mentioned the same thing. And I was like, Oh, I had absolutely no idea about this at all. And it’s just, it’s baffles me it’s a, it’s baffling. It’s very humbling as well, because I have a lot of respect for you. You do such great work and to know that I have any kind of like, impact on that. It’s just like, Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 27:09
Yeah, see, like, block two, maybe he will be doing the same way. We never know how something will never know what is going on in someone else’s life. Right. Yeah. Ever, and then find out like, Oh, I didn’t even know it was the person that that me said that you had suggested me to them to talk?
Wow, okay. Oh, oh, somebody out the company that said I suggest to them, okay. Okay, that makes more sense. Now.
I’ve even now you’re doing you know, talks, like Disney and these types of companies. Yeah. It’s crazy. Yeah, this is crazy. That happens. So I mean, when it comes to like the RSD. And I’ll just kind of dive into this, like when it comes to the RSD. And, and doing these talks at the companies. I assume you follow you’re on coaching and everything from for for other people, let’s say that you either lead a team or have to run a meeting or something like that. What are some things that they that they could do if they have ideas or something like that, that maybe shot down in the meeting?
Speaker 2 28:25
Oh, yeah. I feel your pain. First of all, write a book. Take them into yourself. That is my experience. Personally, I have several experiences of having a 5000 million ideas and being like, we should do this. We should do this we should end now. It’s where ironic running a company with ADHD is because I’m like, Oh my God, I know how they all think they’re all like, you should that this module, you should do this. You should and like because now for me, being the manager like oh, I actually don’t have capacity to breathe I’m I can’t take on everyone else’s ideas. And also like and especially knowing like Yeah, so it’s it’s a really ironic thing, but I would say for the individual, try your best to putt it’s really hard I fully fully get you but like try to kind of write them all down and particularly around what like I’ve been in situations where I felt like I didn’t want to share my ideas because I thought like they’re not gonna get taken on or like you know, get shut down and stuff so, but I would say to instead write them all down and like to kind of I think probably the, to share them but like to think about them actually will say we have this concept and coaching is called like river of ideas like write them down. The concept is that if you think of a river with fish in it, and you were going to take one of the fish out the river to eat it like you could only take one at a time otherwise the other ones would die faster cooking fish So you apply the same concept, the idea is like, if you take all the ideas out the river, then it’s hard to do them all at the same time. And especially like writing them down. I’ve literally one of my coaching clients has an actions like make a river on a wall of like fish. But writing them down helps you do something with them. Yeah, to do one of my old companies that, like set up a agency overnight, a website, and then they message me like you, you can’t do that. Yeah, so basically writing them down putting them somewhere, having a think about them. And then if you want to take one to the company, or something, like do it in a way where, like, you kind of show that you’ve thought about it a bit more. Like media, like I’m not saying I’m gonna do it right now by you’re gonna catch up with me later. So you try your best to plan it out and be like, show why you think it’s a good idea, do your research and ask for like, the time to go through that. Rather than like bombarding your person with like, an email. I’m laughing. I’m feeling I’m feeling the free 60 Now, but you know, like, rather than sending loads and loads and loads of stuff, like by email, and then getting really upset, because like, they’re not taking on and like, then RSD jumps up. And we’re like this. I mean, well, one thing on my day is on like, what’s wrong with them? Trying to do it? It’s very ironic leaving a team now because I’m, like, oh, I help people run retreats and do groups. Yeah. You’re welcome. I’m like, Oh, my God, it’s literally impossible to actually make everyone’s ideas happen. So you can’t find the middle ground. And then if you’re a team, leader, manager, Oh, yeah. And also, I think, in general, for the ADHD personal, like person, we’re building ideas. Like, yes, take the idea to the person if you like. But like, actually, I would suggest that the majority of them you put into you, because like, especially if you’re working in an organisation like that organisation has probably got this that like, whatever work they need to do. Like, I’ll give you an example. Like in the last course, I did, one of the coaches, and I’d love to make like a course, an add on to the course about like social media, I do have a bit of social media on that. Because I would like to add this on, like, do training for coaches on social media. And I was like, Oh, I was like, Oh, that’s a good idea. But then I have over all of the curriculum, the corresponding to other modules and more like, Oh, my Oh, so that I would say, actually, you should do this yourself. Like, why do you need to at my company, you can do it yourself. On the same day, like the ADHD book, I wrote on the side of my law job, like, literally, on the side of it. So I think, take it all in, like all the ideas that you’ve got, and I think that’s ties in very strongly with the rst because we’re like, oh, I want to, like it’d be good if I do it in the company. Like in my old law job, I wanted some mental health circles, moving the job. And they said, no, no, no, I do it as a job. Yeah. run my own company. Yeah, basically put it into yourself on the side and, like, overcome the RSD about like you doing that if you want to, if you’ve got ideas about like networks, I feel like a lot of people know and you’re divergent one set up like Gladsome we all want to set up like communities and support groups and events. And then the company is like, no, yeah, please. They were like we’ve got a community but every different kind of like neurodivergent say of like, 1000s of police officers, and they’re like, and they all want, like, funding and support and all of the stuff and they’re like, how do we help one community. So having, like, putting to you, especially if you’ve got the minute that I left my job, like, it was quite amazing because like, I’ve got so much energy I will happily work from 6am till 12pm Not good thing should not don’t work for 18 hours. But once I had once I was free of a lot of restrictions, like the bureaucracy that’s why it actually works so well because I just am like fully unfettered retreat, whatever. So I think that for the individual and like I really do feel your pain but like the like get a coach. Like do it for you don’t have don’t feel like that’s the only option. Yeah, and I know I can show what I would recommend for managers. Sorry. Like real passionate me and like real pain, but I really understand. But also Yeah, they do it for you because the world needs it and like don’t wait for your like, if your company doesn’t want the idea, like whatever, like do it yourself.
So you apply the same concept. The idea is like, if you take all the ideas out the river, and it’s hard to do them all at the same time, and especially like writing them down, I’ve literally one of my coaching clients on actions like make a river on a wall of like fish. But writing them down helps you can do something with them. Yeah, to do one of my old companies that, like set up a agency overnight, a website, and then they message me like you, you can’t do that. Yeah, so basically writing them down putting them somewhere, having a think about them. And then if you want to take one to the company, or something, like do it in a way where, like, you kind of showed that you thought about it a bit more. Like me, they’re like, I’m gonna do that thing. I’m gonna do it right now by you’re gonna catch up with me later. So you try your best to plan it out and be like, show why you think it’s a good idea, do your research and ask for like, the time to go through that. Rather than like bombarding your person with like, an email. I’m laughing. I’m feeling I’m feeling the free 60 now. But you know, rather than sending loads and loads and loads of stuff, like by email, and then getting really upset, because like, they’re not taking on and like, then RSD jumps up, and we’re like this. I mean, well, one thing on my day is I’m like, What’s wrong with them? Trying to do it? It’s very ironic leaving a team now because I’m, like, oh, how people run retreats and do groups? Yeah. You’re welcome. I’m like, Oh, my God, it’s literally impossible to actually make everyone’s ideas happen. So you can’t find the middle ground. And then if you’re a team, leader, manager, Oh, yeah. And also, I think, in general, for the ADHD personal, like person, we’re building ideas. Like, yes, take the idea to the person if you like. But like, actually, I would suggest that the majority of them you put into you, because like, especially if you’re working in an organisation like that organisation has probably got this that like, whatever work they need to do. Like, I’ll give you an example. Like in the last course, I did, one of the coaches, and I’d love to make like a course, an add on to the course about like social media, I do have a bit of social media on that. Because I would like to add this on, like, do training for coaches on social media. And I was like, Oh, I was like, Oh, that’s a good idea. But then I have over all of the curriculum, the corresponding to other modules on the left paid more like, Oh, my Oh, so that I would say, actually, you should do this yourself. Like, why do you need to at my company, you can do it yourself. And same day, like the ADHD book, I wrote on the side of my law job, like, literally, on the side of it. So I think, take it all, like all the ideas that you’ve got, and I think that’s ties in very strongly with the rst because we’re like, oh, I want to, like it’d be good if I do it in the company. Like in my old law job, I wanted some mental health circles, moving the job. And they said, no, no, no, I do it as a job. Yeah. run my own company. Yeah, basically put it into yourself on the side and like, overcome the RSD about like you doing that if you want to, if you’ve got ideas about like networks, I feel like a lot of people know and you’re divergent one set up like Gladsome we all want to set up like communities and support groups and events and then the company is like, no, yeah, please they were like we’ve got a community but every different kind of like neurodivergent say of like 1000s of police officers and they’re like and they all want like funding and support and all the stuff and they’re like how do we help one community so having like, putting to you especially if you’ve got the minute I left my job like it was quite amazing because like I’ve got so much energy I will happily work from 6am till 12pm Not good thing should not don’t work for 18 hours but once I had once I was free of all the restrictions like the bureaucracy that’s why it actually works so well because I just haven’t like fully unfettered retreat whatever. So I think that for the individual and like I really do feel your pain but like the like get a coach like do it for you don’t have don’t feel like that’s the only option. Yeah, and I know I can show what I would recommend for managers. Sorry. Like real passionate me and like real pain, but I really understand but also Yeah, they do it for you because the world needs it and like don’t wait for your like if your company doesn’t want the idea like whatever like do it yourself.
Yeah, just do yourself out right?
Like the thing like if I didn’t want to learn coding your way with them from the top from definitely because of other mental health cycle your company but the Yeah, and then for managers and leaders and it’s going to people that are managing people like myself that like I want I want you to do this. I think you should like like me. Yeah. I think it’s finding, setting really, really clear boundaries of like, what is expected, like, you know, within the work hours. And then like, help the person like, find opportunities to do that. Right. Like, let them know that that idea is like, super, super welcome and valid, because, ya know, when, when I’ve, when I’ve wanted to do things with ADHD works, I’ve got this team, I’m like, give me your ideas, you’re great. I would like your burns, think of me. You know, it’s like, really making people feel that their ideas are like, welcome. Yeah, and appreciate that, because they aren’t great. And amazing, but it’s kind of setting the expectation is that like, we can’t do it, or that all these like bureaucracy and stuff, but maybe even like, talking through the ideas with them, like, you know, if they, if they wanted to really set up like a community has only been like, okay, but actually, like, I can do one of the I can go an hour off my senior manager or HR person, like, which one is most important to you? What would the outcomes be? What do you want to get out of it, but then also being like, kind of working on the person being like, what could you do by yourself, like, do you want like, you know, if you want to get all these things, like, you can do it on the side of your job, you don’t have to do that, like for this company, kind of how I just said, like, actually supporting people to achieve what they want to achieve, like, not necessarily just within the confines of the job, but like, all of the energy, and helping them to see opportunities within the company. Like, I’ve got someone like weekly group coaching, so I was like, cool, like, this person wants to do group coaching, like their hair like so giving them like learning opportunities that will help them develop those ideas and recognising that their real real asset, really amazing, really welcome them, giving them a my dad that you have this idea, like a blue sky thinking day, so like, a time like so basically, instead of like me, sharing your ideas, like in the team meeting, or like by email, like firing off emails, yeah, you could create like an ideas. hour where people can bring their ideas to you, you know, and share them and present them like maybe like one idea at a time. But then, but then you get the best ideas, right? And like you’ve set the time up. So then anything around that you like, do it in the container. I think it’s time and then having like, little process around that. But I do. Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. I hope you don’t mind me just babbling on about that. Because I think it’s something that comes up so much at work that people don’t talk about, because it’s a bit of a random thing to talk about. Yeah, it’s a bit, you would have to know someone with ADHD, particularly to talk about, oh, I know what you mean. But I do I see a huge, but I coach people like often that’s because they have no idea if they go into a job, they’re super like, like, I’m gonna do this and this and this, and then their managers or whoever, like no, yeah.
I mean, that’s, this is actually all touched on something that I’ve talked to I’ve talked about previously. But it’s quite linked. And I think, if you have if you have ADHD employees, and you’re a manager, so this situation that we’re this kind of situation we’re talking about, it’s such a good way of encouraging them and also letting encouraging them to work to their potential, not just not just to the potential that everyone thinks maybe we are, we can get to, but it actually can tap into our just kind of innate strengths as well, you can tap into the hyperfocus and doing the research doing everything. And even if it starts out as like a personal project, it could lead to a company project that could actually in the end benefit the company, they just didn’t want to put that initial, like risk or investment in which if you don’t have unlimited money, which very few companies do fair enough, and then you know, that person gets that ownership, and they get the encouragement, the thing, the thing that I’m struck with those, and I don’t know, if you would agree, I feel like there’s with the management level. At least from my perspective, in tech and in cyber there, there’s not much in the way of understanding of what ADHD is, and there’s not much in the way of how to understanding of how to support people like that. And I think that’s that’s this is one of the areas where there needs to be real change not just in the menu for the managers but in how companies train the managers to deal with neurodivergent people in AD in ADHD ears so that they can support it you know, when they when they walk up and they’re like, I have an idea to make this a little bit easier and so that we can all leave and go to the pump at three o’clock instead of five o’clock. And right now the managers I think for the most part are like no, no, no, we you know, we’re stuck in our ways. We have we have this we have this process and you know Then the employee will probably do it anyways. Do it in their own time. And it actually is better. But they
Yeah, yeah. So when I did the Disney, Disney are basically trying to induce Mental Health First Aiders on ADHD coaching skills, and then gave them like workbooks and stuff around ADHD. And because instead, like that situation I just described or the one before, but ideas like, endless. And so I can coach individual managers like that way I can give them support around that specific situation. But the best thing that I think they can do is trained in like actual ADHD coaching, like coaching people working with you, because then they know it’s not, that person hasn’t made that suggestion, because they want to go to the pub at four o’clock, like, they’re not doing it, because they don’t want to be at work. And then just, they’re not doing it because they want to speed through their work and they didn’t care. Or they’re not coming up with those ideas, because they didn’t want to do that job. Like they are actually doing it because they probably finished their job. And they bought and then we could do all of these things really quickly, like do the sunrise wherever they are, and like the mansions like but that’s not how we make, which I know really get being a manager myself.
I can really understand that. Because, you know, like, now having different employees, right? Oh, well, it’s really important that we’ll do like, Ben, I have my deposit. I want to do all these things I want in my managers like, well, that’s a lot of other people’s areas.
But like now I’m like, Oh, actually, if I did someone else’s job for them, they don’t know what to do. And like I’m coaching someone now that came up. They told lots of people what to do, like the big manager, and over the weekend, they did all themselves. Like, Oh, I feel Yeah, I feel Yup. Do you know that feeling? And so that’s yeah, it’s very ironic and interesting. So I think for managers to have that understanding and awareness, my manager was actually really good. She helped me. You know, when I was like, I had we would respond to these government consultations. And she had, she said that I could respond to other ones my uncle was responding to like, the job. And then I was like, Oh, what about body image? Can I do the thing about? Like, yeah, fine, but I think that can often be a big thought in people’s heads, like with the book, that ADHD book, I was so sure that I wouldn’t be allowed to publish it. And obviously, they did not care. But in my head, I was like, they’re not gonna let me publish my book. Like, that’s kind of, like, the people never care as much as they think they do. But I think for managers having like, just, I mean, that training, understanding and like, the coaching skills are so useful, because then like, it doesn’t matter the situation, but you’ve got the context. And like, particularly in understanding a person, because I think that’s probably the biggest challenge is like, because they don’t get that training. So then the, like, might have their own assumptions and personal functions, but instead of like actually understanding like this individual person, like for me, I might be very different to a different like that someone else my ADHD, like, very loud person, I was very quiet person, but I was doing a month’s worth of work in a day like I’m done. Yeah. What are we doing? Let’s go. It’s very different for everyone. But if you’ve got those skills, you can kind of apply them to the end, which I think is like management in general, right. But a lot of managers aren’t trained on management. They’re just promoted because they’re good at their job, which might have nothing to do with people.
Yeah, yeah. And that’s the thing is, I mean, as we’ve been talking to mistaking you, I have a good example of kind of, I had a project that I wanted to do, I had something I wanted to do. And it was this podcast, ironically enough. I had been at via for probably think about three weeks a month, absolute tops. When I had this idea. I want to start a podcast. So I go to go to my manager, and basically the rest the team was like, Okay, I want to start a podcast on ADHD and cybersecurity. I don’t know how to do this, because I’ve never done a podcast before. And they’re basically my managers response was, do the research. You know, do the research find, find people that are interested in doing and coming out as a guest speaker? Can you act Do you have enough content, blah, blah, all of these things. And I started that I started the process and then after about a week of starting the process, I got it I got bored. I was like, I’m not seeing the payoff yet. So I let it sit for probably two or three weeks and then people started responding to me Me, there was interest growing, you know, I’ve made, I’ve made made a couple posts in LinkedIn about, you know, would people be interested in watching or listening to it. And that started to get some traction, my family and my girlfriend, were all talking about it. And after like a two to three week hiatus, I was like, Okay, I’m doing this and started up the process again. And once I had, I think five or six people lined up as guest speakers. And I’d written out the, you know, the sheets, the questions and all that stuff to help guide the conversations, I’ve done the research booklet, blah. Then my company was like, Okay, we will support you, you know, any, any tech, we need to do this, we’ll do it. That’s one of those moments where I had an idea. And, you know, I figured, like, Oh, my company will help. And they did, but they didn’t, you know, they, they gave me the leeway and everything to do it for myself. And then once it was like, Oh, this could actually be something then they came in, and they’re like, Okay, yes, we’re happy to do this with you. But that’s that’s one of those moments where that’s that’s good management, isn’t it? Where they’re supporting someone with ADHD? That has that idea. But like you said, kind of delegating and saying, like, do on your own time, and then we’ll talk about it again. Yeah.
Because Are they helping you have this podcast now?
Yeah, yeah, this Thank you. Thank you very much.
Did I have a question? Do they find this podcast of like, do they have to listen to it before? Funny?
So they, they want one of my colleagues does, helps. And does. She doesn’t she does all the editing. So she, she listens to it, but I, you know, I listened to it. And then we can discuss where to go from editing after that. So they actually do they are actually in the process.
Yeah, yeah, that’s yeah. The reason I started, I was like, That’s literally what I did my job.
Very similar than the right like a 16 page, podcast policy. Anyone can follow it, anyone can do it. But then. And I think, again, it’s a really good example of how like these ideas, week we ADHD is all very amazing ideas. And not so many reports are boring. I can follow through. And then once I’ve done it once, and then bored now. So I got all the work, like, did all the prep work, recorded the podcast, then had to sign it. And then I had to fend off the podcast, and I had to edit the podcast, and this but my brain was like just that my beautiful podcast, I like recording that episode, then it was like, oh my god, that was very painful, nothing again. And so that was really not an edge. Again, it’s a really good example. Because like, thinking it through and like having that buy in. Because if you like, it’s really hard, because if you’re the company, right, and so like me, it actually works. Like if one of my coaches were like, We do actually have a podcast, but if they wanted, I would just want you to, if you can handle the admin, if you want to upload it all fine, but obviously it can’t have them going out doing podcasting, like ADHD is not real sucks. So it’s like these interesting bounces. But then like, showing that I think probably what I would if I was one job, like if you can show me that you fought every step of the way through and you can find someone that wants to help you and the parts that like you don’t want to do like the sign off, or the editing or upload like the admin. Thank cool, because, for me, it’s a good, the best way to manage people with each day. So how I did? Because you’re like, I know what your brain is like, as well. Yeah. It’s like, we can do the fun bits, but the US, but those bits after can be really challenging. So um, yeah, it’s a really interesting thing. It’s really nice talk about it, because I think people when they do the talk, like, you know, the most corporate, like, near diversity clapping like well, they’re like, oh, people with ADHD are so innovative. But it is that thing of like most corporations, they work in a very org. Like, I couldn’t believe it when I started my job. And they had like a separate person doing social media. So pressing, pressing pocket, I was like, but what did they do audit? I did the job was like, 45 people now My thing is, I was like, but then what did they do? Are they so I think it’s a really interesting like balance. They’re like they’ve ADHD brandsma Like those ideas and things are amazing. So how do you like literally harness them like your company has a podcast of like finding the way to make it work like setting I think like the boundaries around it and like making it realistic. Again, it’s not running because I do ADHD coaching now. Again, that’s probably why I’m good at coaching other people. We find the boundaries are on the containers. They’re like, Okay, how do you know When you’re going to finish it, then what are you going to do? Like, on the first fun that, then what? And then like setting up in that way. So yeah, I’m really lucky now because I’ve got Beth, who helps me do everything with ADHD works but poor bath like, poor like so as like I’m gonna do a POC and we have the podcast here, but I was like, Oh, I’m gonna do a podcast blitzing on LinkedIn and like, so if anyone wants to be on it had like 50 to 100 people contact Beth like, she woke up to all these emails being like, I want to come on the podcast that she didn’t know existed. And then that was me. She just went and turned it into a podcast, make that happen stuff. And then we had we people booked in weekly for like, a year, and then a few months online, I was like, I can’t be able to do this anymore. And then cancel that. So that’s a really nice thing about running your own company. It’s like, you don’t have so many people. Like, you’re kind of accountable to yourself. Yeah, people that rely on you. But like, you learn as you go, but if you’re working for someone, then you like for, like, you know, if you’re being managed by someone you have to consider like that. Their workload and the workload of your team and the workload that run out. Like, yeah, I’m always I’ll do it. Well, it’s fine. But like, then, like, Will I actually do it or down the line? Like?
I don’t know. Maybe, maybe we’ll see when we get there.
Yeah, in the moment, I really am like, yeah, I will happily do all of that. It’s like, it’s fine. But then when you’re in it, you’re like, Oh, my brain doesn’t work anymore. Like, you’re like, No, no, don’t. And then that’s where all the RSD comes are.
Yeah, yeah. Cuz then yeah. Because then you kind of question yourself, like, yeah, you question yourself, and you’re you kind of like, I’m not good enough? Or that that’s kind of impostor syndrome, as well, isn’t it? You’re just kind of questioning like, am I even good enough to be doing all of these different things, and you’re just being too hard on yourself?
Yeah. And that’s what comes to the thought of like, you know, actually, kind of setting yourself up, or being kind to yourself lenders was really nice. And I run the company and like Kellyanne, like, maybe next time, we’ll run it in like, slightly different way, but it’s alright. It’s fine. It’s not gonna end because we have to cancel 75 podcasts.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, one thing you mentioned, you touched on very, just very briefly, but I’ve been I’ve been curious to get your kind of perspective on it. There are obviously people out there that don’t believe ADHD is real. How they believe that if they know anything about it, I don’t know. I, in fact, I used to work with someone who diagnosed ADHD, primarily active, I still am not going to muck in the name blast or anything. nice enough guy. One day, you know, came into work. I was working at a bar at the time. And it was really loud. It was noisy, and I went up to him because he had ADHD as well as like, Hey, I’m getting really overstimulated. I’ve been here. For like, 10 hours, I’ve had 120 minute break. I need to step outside for like 2030 minutes, because it’s just too loud. And he was like, why it wasn’t because I have ADHD. And I’m overstimulated and I’m like, I’m frazzled. I can’t work, I can’t function. And he just looked at me dead in the eyes. And he was like, No, you’re fine. Don’t have ADHD. It’s not real. So let me know, I know. That’s, that was my that was my reaction as well. It was just kind of like an incredulous laugh, because I know for a fact he had an ADHD diagnosis. So it’s kind of what I’m what I’m getting at is like, when we inevitably get to the point, or our listeners get to a point where they meet someone in that professional setting, that actually does say, No, it’s not real or, or argues against it. In your experience, how do you handle that? Like, what’s the best way for someone to to handle that situation?
Like all my answers, it depends on the situation. If it’s like your situation, then the thing I definitely want to advise people to do, but I would say talk to her HR. That’s why do you think it’s really important to have that policy we’ve got free policy on our website, but like policies around I don’t like really like the word like discuss telling your employer you’ve got ADHD in a kind of formal way. Because there are like, this is a lot of what I do as well, because I unfortunately worked in mental health and disability law. So I know a little bit like there are lots of laws that get triggered when someone discloses a disability which a disability only has to be a health condition that basically affects your ability to do normal day to day activities significantly negatively in contrast to your peers. The diagnostic criteria for ADHD is to have two or more areas of your life that are significantly negatively impacted for a long period of time. So guess what, probably it’s gonna amount to disability but interestingly, any of the tribunal and tell you that which is a long road. So companies are best to assume that everyone’s got this multi if they say they have because and that’s even without a formal diagnosis as well, like, because I don’t change the fact that you’ve got a disability, right? Like, you were disabled before you were disabled. Like, yeah, so it’s so if you’re in that situation, and like, I often talk to people, like, I want to tell my employer after I pass my probation, I’m like, don’t do that, do it now. Because if they’re gonna fire you, then like, if they don’t know that you’ve got ADHD, then they can’t do what they’re meant to do, like, but if they do know, then they have to do adjustments, and they have to take into account they need to do something to make sure that you are not disadvantaged in comparison to people that don’t have ADHD, that white colour, you know, like your explanation that you’ve got that, like, obviously, it sounded quite horrible in the first place. But I really love the fact I really love is that bullying is not illegal in the workplace. But discrimination and harassment is so that’s like, if you, you know, basically someone can bully you and be like, go and stand in that corner. Like, we don’t like you. But if they said, I didn’t like that you’ve got ADHD, go stand in that corner, because you’ve got ADHD, then that’s discrimination. That’s so like, that’s why, you know, again, like I do a lot of training for companies, because like, they’re really important legal obligations that if you’ve got people like this guy that talked to you, that are like, not very old, didn’t really care go away. The companies can be sued that discrimination. Damages are like unlimited. So I got a call from a lot of money, huge amount of and particularly like a failure, they call it a failure to make reasonable adjustments. So what you asked for was like a reasonable adjustment. So I want to go outside. And they were like, no. So that would be like a failure to make reasonable adjustments. And then afterwards, he’s like, I don’t believe in it. You don’t have ADHD, you’re fine, like, harassment? Because he’s saying, yeah, so. But yeah, so I’d say talk to HR. It’s really scary to do that for people because like, obviously, it’s kind of putting your hands up, but they will help you because they have to, because it’s the law. So if they don’t help you, a lawyer? Yeah, it’s a really, really tricky area. And the tricky part of it is that a lot of companies are not trained on disability law. Because of the fact like neurodiversity, for example, it’s only been talked about a lot in the last like five years, and the company level, even the year where like, ADHD works. There’s literally no one on LinkedIn, in particular talks about ADHD, like, it was just announced on LinkedIn, I literally felt like I was saying, Hi, I’m a clown now. And now it feels like everyone I know on LinkedIn is like, the person that BIOS I like I’m walking. Yeah, I’ve got I’m neurodiverse,
which is great. But it’s great. Yeah.
The old day, the people individuals have called up the company’s still in the process, understandably, because they’re, it’s really complicated. And it’s really different for everyone. But I would say in general, in general, like on a more practical day to day level, like if you’ve got people around you that are like making comments and stuff. Like kind of thing. It depends on the situation of where you want to draw the line of being like a group that or, you know, communicating, like when you’re saying this thing, it’s making me feel this way, I would prefer it if you don’t put in writing, write it down, keep it keep a log of one when it happens. And keep keep a good, good tracking log of that. Because then you can use that later on. And what’s the end? Like my general advice, because you know, for example, though, something last week on LinkedIn, about it was like, this woman said, autism is real, because I’ve got people in my life with autism that
oh, I’ve saw that
ADHD rail. Oh, really pick like just one, I really like her and have a book about trauma. But and so I’m like, you can’t really pick but basically, in general, kind of going back to the guy that blocked you, right? Everyone is entitled to believe or do whatever they want. Just like them have, like, it’s very hard to change people. And you know why? He says that what we say is right, anyway, what like when I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was like, That’s not real. Like, I’ve got a real problem. So I’m not really wanting to judge people that think it’s not real because five years ago and if again, like I don’t think people do it really to be malicious. I think it’s just like, their conditioning, that situation whatever it is, you know, that person that you sent has been diagnosed with ADHD actually want to do it or someone that had also been diagnosed with ADHD. He was like, It’s not rare when I was like, claiming it’s gonna work out, to be honest with me, because he didn’t want to. For a good year. I was kind of the same way as well. I was like, no I just my family were like, psychiatrists are just trying to make money out of you. Because and that is what is really annoying because like, I had to pay another 400 pounds to see the psychiatrist to finish the diagnosis off. Didn’t have to pay for insurance months to get medication. So it was very much like, Yeah, well, and the information available on the Internet back then was just like, nothing. No, no, no Instagram accounts on ADHD like me five years ago. That’s why I wrote that book, because I was like, I don’t even like, like, what is like, I’m not a hyperactive person. Like, I would just wake up and sit on the computer for like, 12 hours, but now I know, it’s like mentally hyperactive.